Long Term Strangles


#21

Of course being the holiday week I posted my normal EuroUSD trade we have been discussing in demo. Never fails, the demo trade wins…lol

Anyway, the day had a good amount of US news, so the market went back to a normal like movement. Today was pretty indicative of most days without an abundance of news. Hit profit target early in the day.

As far as more OTM strikes for this trade, I would love to limit the loss with those, however as I mentioned before, if your off on your estimate of take profit price after a predicted daily move, trade would loose. However I could be wrong and would love to some numbers across time on that version of this trade. I might try start throwing them on demo after the new year at the same time I execute these live trades.


<img src=/uploads/db0876/1268/75d7ab27fb7dca1e.png">


#22

Chaz,

Thanks for posting your trades!

Please put these in the strangles post I started in this link http://apexinvesting.net/forum/strangles-220/long-term-strangles-2553.html#.VJsYgXkA

I would like this post to be just about IBF weekly results.

Thank you and as i mentioned after the Holiday I will be testing as well and will post in the the link above.

Happy Holidays!!


#23

I know of some good time you should try these by the way like on the EURGBP we do the IBF from 1:30pm to 11pm and not till 3am for a reason it seems like right at 2:30 on a lot of days that pair has a decent size move up until about 7am, if you go back and just look at the charts you will see this.


#24

Hey Rich, happy holidays. I will be putting my charts and comments on next day straddles here as you requested. I am have a simple spreadsheet that I have been keeping on these trades and I will attach it when I get a chance. It does include some mistakes made on trades however and I am trying to go back and notate those.

Picking up on our conversation regarding a more OTM trade than I have been taking…I have a few thoughts after doing a more OTM trade on demo last night and watching price move, time delta etc…

  1. both trades would be a 1:1 risk reward ratio…so, the more OTM trade is less risk yes…but less reward as well. So to get the same return, you are simply dealing in more contracts…bringing your risk up along with the reward. Therefore same risk as current OTM trades…correct?

  2. Estimated take profit on a more OTM trade is essential. I used the scanner price estimation last night set at expected move for next day. Any other method?

  3. Due to the time delta, if instrument does not move towards your take profit price early in the time delta, your Take profit price will not be hit. the closer to close of contract, the less percentage that far OTM will be hit.
    Therefore making it a much lower probability trade. The OTM I am using now, being ATM at the predicted movement hit profit targets much faster. Thoughts?

These were my intial thoughts as I watch the time decay and movement on the far OTMs today. My OTM has already reached maximum profit target and have exited the trade for a 3pm expiry.

Chart attached.


<img src=/uploads/db0876/611/dbb3126481afe226.png">


#25

http://content.screencast.com/users/chaztrade/folders/Jing/media/84fc172f-e9bb-40b5-bff6-fedcdaf02752/2014-12-31_1315.png


#26

sorry for multiple replies…having issues attaching screenshots… Screencast links seem to be working. Here is the second one. http://content.screencast.com/users/chaztrade/folders/Jing/media/d2f2ad75-68ae-4cdf-bf96-ccf40728f534/2014-12-31_1317.png


#27

Chaz,

A quick word about screenshots then I will answer you posts.

Dont put the link in the body of the message manually use the icon above, see my screenshot instructions:

This way the charts will show in the post and people dont have to click on them:cool:


#28

Chaz,

See my responses below:

Hey Rich, happy holidays. I will be putting my charts and comments on next day straddles FONT=Century Gothic;)[/font] here as you requested. I am have a simple spreadsheet that I have been keeping on these trades and I will attach it when I get a chance. It does include some mistakes made on trades however and I am trying to go back and notate those. [FONT=Century Gothic]GREAT WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT THE MISTAKES ARE!! THATS HOW WE LEARN![/font]

Picking up on our conversation regarding a more OTM trade than I have been taking…I have a few thoughts after doing a more OTM trade on demo last night and watching price move, time delta etc…

  1. both trades would be a 1:1 risk reward ratio…so, the more OTM trade is less risk yes…but less reward as well. So to get the same return, you are simply dealing in more contracts…bringing your risk up along with the reward. Therefore same risk as current OTM trades…correct? [FONT=Century Gothic] I SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HOWEVER MY THOUGHT IS I RATHER LOSE AT TOTAL OF SAY $16 - $8 PER SIDE IF THE MARKET DOES NOT MOVE VERSUS LOSING SAY $60 - $30 PER SIDE, REMEMBER I TRADE A LOT OF BUTTERFLIES AND I DO THAT BECAUSE THE MARKET DOESN’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING I LIKE THAT I AM A LITTLE WEARY ABOUT PUTTING UP A BIGGER CHUNK OF CASH AND RELYING ON THE MARKET TO DO SOMETHING, I NEED TO DO MORE STUDY ON THE PARTICULAR MARKETS TO SEE WHAT THEY GENERALLY DO FOR THE TIME PERIODS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AND USE THE RANGES OF COURSE.[/font]

  2. Estimated take profit on a more OTM trade is essential. I used the scanner price estimation last night set at expected move for next day. Any other method? [FONT=Century Gothic]I REALLY JUST TRY TO CAPTURE $20 IN PROFIT AFTER SUBTRACTING THE OTHER SIDES LOSS, HOWEVER I REALLY HAVE NOT PRACTICED THIS WHOLE LOT AS I HAVE BEEN REALLY TESTING THE IBFS HEAVILY.[/font]

  3. Due to the time delta, if instrument does not move towards your take profit price early in the time delta, your Take profit price will not be hit. the closer to close of contract, the less percentage that far OTM will be hit. [FONT=Century Gothic](THIS IS TRUE)[/font] Therefore making it a much lower probability trade. [FONT=Century Gothic]The OTM I am using now, being ATM at the predicted movement hit profit targets much faster. Thoughts? THIS IS WHY ITS IMPERATIVE I FEEL TO KNOW YOU MARKET, I KNOW FROM TRADING THE IBFS THAT EURGBP IS FLAT AS BOARD BETWEEN 1:30PM TO 11 PM THE AT 2;30 ALMOST LIKE CLOCKWORK THERE IS A SHARP MOVE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER IN THIS CASE THIS TYPE OF SPIKE SHOULD GET YOUR TP HIT AND THEREFORE I FEEL A CHEAPER STRANGLE IS NOT A BAD IDEA BUT IF YOU DID YOUR CLOSER TO THE MONEY STRIKE YOU MAY HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF THE PRICE ACTUALLY FINISHING ABOVE YOUR STRIKE FOR A FULL PROFIT SO THAT MAY WORK TOO, SEE I WOULD BE MORE AP TO DO WHAT YOUR DOING IF I KNOW HISTORICALLY SAY THE EURGBP MOVES 50PIPS BETWEEN 2:30 AND 11AM, I THINK IF WE HAVE A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TIME TO EXPIRY BUT KNOW A MOVE IS PROBABLY GONNA HAPPEN AND THEN IT DOES THE PRICE OF THE OPTION IS GONNA MOVE VERY QUICKLY IF THERE IS A SURGE LIKE IN THE EXAMPLE OF THE EURGBP SAY WE SET THAT UP AT 11PM BUT DON’T DO END OF DAY DO AN 11AM EXP OR 7AM THAT MAY WORK WELL! YOUR THOUGHTS? I REALLY FEEL THAT IF YOU BEST CHANCE TO GET THIS DONE IS OBVIOUSLY WHEN THE MARKET IS GONNA SURCGE AND THIS IS FROM LIKE 3AM TO 11AM ON INDICES AND REALLY THE SAME ON MOST MAJOR FOREX PAIRS LIKE EURUSDE CAD GBPUSD AS THIS WHEN THE OVERLAP IS IN THE TRADING SESSIONS YOU HAVE LONDON MIXED WITH US SESSIONS ITS COMMON SENSE REALLY SO LET TEST THIS SHORTEN IT UP TO GET THOSE OPTION PRICES TO MOVE FAST WHEN THE PRICE SURGES DON’T DO THE 3PM EXP TRY 11AM AND SEE. [/font] These were my intial thoughts as I watch the time decay and movement on the far OTMs today. My OTM has already reached maximum profit target and have exited the trade for a 3pm expiry.

Chart attached.


#29

Chaz,

Also have you tinkered with adding stops after your position gets past break even?

-Rich


#30

Hey Rich. I have used the “insert image” but it does not always work. Usually the “attachment” in advanced post window works like a charm…this time neither did, and i had to use the link method with a screencast link. Weird. I know.

All good points above. It does take some finesse in knowing the market movement times that you are trading for the far OTMs. If you are taking $20 profit the while the option is still OTM, then it does need to be a moving market, in the right part of the time delta. The demo trade I did on Euro USD today was 11am expiry. 3pm for this instrument would probably be better. I think for this strategy, some time watching a single instrument and its behavior is a must. I know the EuroUSD so well, I will try some different expiries etc…let you know.

I considered adding stops, just have not got a handle on the best time to do that. You run the risk of a small retracement triggering a stop, and missing a trade that would otherwise be ITM. The success rate on the strikes I have been using have been such that it may or not make sense to do that. Something else to track!

I like your IBF trades, and have messed with them a lot. One difficulty I have is that if I am not babysitting them and I am traveling on business, the stop trigger does not always work. It has either logged out, or if the price comes shooting past your stop it can get you out at a terrible price. Killing your risk/reward ratio. Which is so imperative for me.

I will keep messing with the far OTM alongside my normal trade, and get some results posted. As well as a simple clean version of the spreadsheet I am working on.

Happy New Year!


#31

Chaz,

NT7 gives you the ability to export data OHLC so you can easily back test the average moves of these markets and for specific time periods, this is helpful versus trading it for a long period of time to find out. are you familiar with how to extract the data?

Rich


#32

Ok…sorry it took so long for this data…but I had all my strangles over the last two months on one sheet. This included multiple contract sizes and multiple instruments. I extracted only the EuroUSD since over the past weeks it has been what I have been focusing on. I trade it on forex, and I know its movements. I then broke down the totals so that each trade was one contract…for study purposes. I had been fighting with a “IF” formula in excel so it took a little while. But now that i have the template set up, these stats should be easier to track and not take me a lifetime everyday filling in cells.



#33

Sorry I could not post the raw data. 23 trades and all of the adjacent cells it takes to provide info on this sheet would be so small on a picture attachment you could not read it.

What we glean from this info…Rich your two cents?

  1. Estimated Risk/Reward is slightly less than 1:1 (excel wont do ratios without the stupid add on)
  2. Lost revenue from placing TP Orders is minimal. Will track orders that would have lost without the working orders to get more info
  3. The reward part of the ratio equation gets hit left right and center. First there are Fees…then there is the TP order leaving the actual R/R figure lower than it exists now. CAN THERE BE STOPS PLACED TO EXECUTE A TP ORDER? IF SO AT WHAT TIME…IF SET TOO EARLY PRICE WOULD SUFFER. 4.The win ratio here is excellent. 81%…if profit can be further maximized this trade is a very high probability trade…HAD I NOT PUT IN TRADES ON A HOLIDAY WEEK…TWO LOSSES WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. MAKING WIN PERCENTAGE HIGHER STILL…DO NOT USE THIS SET UP ON HOLIDAY WEEKS!!!

Let me know thoughts…and if you would like the raw data.

Thats it…I am excelled out.


#34

[quote=chazw661]Sorry I could not post the raw data. 23 trades and all of the adjacent cells it takes to provide info on this sheet would be so small on a picture attachment you could not read it.

What we glean from this info…Rich your two cents?

  1. Estimated Risk/Reward is slightly less than 1:1 (excel wont do ratios without the stupid add on)
  2. Lost revenue from placing TP Orders is minimal. Will track orders that would have lost without the working orders to get more info
  3. The reward part of the ratio equation gets hit left right and center. First there are Fees…then there is the TP order leaving the actual R/R figure lower than it exists now. CAN THERE BE STOPS PLACED TO EXECUTE A TP ORDER? IF SO AT WHAT TIME…IF SET TOO EARLY PRICE WOULD SUFFER. 4.The win ratio here is excellent. 81%…if profit can be further maximized this trade is a very high probability trade…HAD I NOT PUT IN TRADES ON A HOLIDAY WEEK…TWO LOSSES WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. MAKING WIN PERCENTAGE HIGHER STILL…DO NOT USE THIS SET UP ON HOLIDAY WEEKS!!!

Let me know thoughts…and if you would like the raw data.

Thats it…I am excelled out.[/quote]

Chaz,

Put the spreadsheet in dropbox link and post the link in here.

Thx


#35

[quote=chazw661]Ok…sorry it took so long for this data…but I had all my strangles over the last two months on one sheet. This included multiple contract sizes and multiple instruments. I extracted only the EuroUSD since over the past weeks it has been what I have been focusing on. I trade it on forex, and I know its movements. I then broke down the totals so that each trade was one contract…for study purposes. I had been fighting with a “IF” formula in excel so it took a little while. But now that i have the template set up, these stats should be easier to track and not take me a lifetime everyday filling in cells.

[/quote]

Chaz,

So what you are doing is setting up the strangles about $30 per side, correct?

And you setting up at 11pm for either the 11am or the 3pm, correct?

what pairs or instruments are doing this on EUR/USD?

Looks pretty good, little higher risk but looks solid?

Keep testing this as IV is going to change pretty drastically I would imagine after this week, will be interested to see of you can the $30 strikes where you want them when that happens.


#36

Hey Rich…yes, setting up between 10pm and 11pm. 30 dollars per side, and lately only on the EURUSD.

Link to dropbox folder:

There is a data worksheet and a results worksheet


#37

[quote=chazw661]Hey Rich…yes, setting up between 10pm and 11pm. 30 dollars per side, and lately only on the EURUSD.

Link to dropbox folder:

There is a data worksheet and a results worksheet[/quote]

Chaz,

Thanks for the link.

My initial thoughts are this:

Looks like you have had a pretty high win rate, however loses of $65+ are just to much, especially when some of the wins are in the low $30 range, this means you have to win 2 trades to make up for one loss, I do not like that scenario, the worst you want is 1:1, in this case you did ok and ,made a profit because you has a high win rate but you hit a cold streak your gonna be in for it, they losses will be unrecoverable, take the IBF scenario into account here and you still profit with only 50% win rate, you do 50% in this strategy at those entry prices and your gonna be in a world of hurt.

Please let me know if I’m misinterpreting something here, I’m gonna try to figure some numbers out and get back to you, I really need to do some testing on this.


#38

Hey Rich, you are spot on with your comments. Without the two trades over the holidays the win percentage would be higher yet. With the EuroUSD this is a really high probability trade…which is why I am so desperate to get the risk ratio back down to something more manageable as we all know trades loose from time to time. And yes, with the ratio less than 1:1 its a big no no…If we can get that under control…it can be a huge money maker at above 80% success rates. I am going to keep on them and tracking them when IV returns next week.

I am also going to dive into your IBF trades and start tracking as well. I was worried about the price running through the stop trigger, but you addressed that with your timing. As long as I stay away from high impact news…I feel much better about he stop loss protection. Since the capital investment is so much larger, that protection is a big deal for me. Especially when you get into trading larger number of contracts. If you mess that up thats a lot of capital sitting out there.

If you have any other thoughts on how to get the risk down on the strangle let me know.


#39

[quote=chazw661]Hey Rich, you are spot on with your comments. Without the two trades over the holidays the win percentage would be higher yet. With the EuroUSD this is a really high probability trade…which is why I am so desperate to get the risk ratio back down to something more manageable as we all know trades loose from time to time. And yes, with the ratio less than 1:1 its a big no no…If we can get that under control…it can be a huge money maker at above 80% success rates. I am going to keep on them and tracking them when IV returns next week.

I am also going to dive into your IBF trades and start tracking as well. I was worried about the price running through the stop trigger, but you addressed that with your timing. As long as I stay away from high impact news…I feel much better about he stop loss protection. Since the capital investment is so much larger, that protection is a big deal for me. Especially when you get into trading larger number of contracts. If you mess that up thats a lot of capital sitting out there.

If you have any other thoughts on how to get the risk down on the strangle let me know.[/quote]

Chaz,

As far as the price moving past a stop or getting you out at a bad fill price due to the market moving too fast: you are correct when you said avoiding news events and things like that, additionally of you trade less volatile periods like the 1:30 to 11pm and the 6pm - 3am you don’t have to worry about this too much as price will often move slowly enough through your stop to get you out usually no worse the $54 usually around $52, see my results i have my stop out prices on there.

If you are going to trade IBF’s over more volatile periods you need to set the stop inside the strike the more volatile the more you need to be inside the strike like when I did some on NG I had 4 ticks and that still was not enough i needed like 6 probably but usually when o did them on some of the other pairs i set it between 2 - 4 ticks and that usually works, like when I do the longer term ones. its a guessing game really as the the indicative lags and is highly effected by how fast or slow the market moves as you are noticing.

I do still trade news events with IBF’s from time to time but I do not use stops till late in the trade as I mentioned yesterday in one of my replies I do strangled IBF’s so if price runs away i have the strangle in there to offset some of the loss, the ideal situation when doing a strangled IBF is to have price shoot up hit your TP then retrace to finish inside the IBF but if the news is a bust you win the IBF and lose the strangle so you just about break even. I like to trade the news like this I had some good trades a while back, if you can find the 5 tick wide strikes you can sometimes find a strangle for like 6 per side $12 total and the best part is the strikes are only like 25 ticks away from current prices and as you know on some news events were talking like 50 pips of movement so this a $94 gain on one side, see my posts I have making like $200+ on one news trade if i was trading bigger contracts that would be a good couple hours! I do want to try strangled Iron Condors too!


#40

Rich, Can you do a video on the straddle setup please unless you have one. Thanks! Robert